Larry James - Time travel controller at the Montauk Project - part 1

The Philadelphia Experiment

Historian Michael Houtzager (zager@webhoster.com) recoreded this interview with Larry James, an engineer who worked on Phoenix II and Phoenix III at Camp Hero, in the year, 2000. Michael Houtzager’s web site is http://www.bielek.com/.

MICHAEL: We're again talking with Larry James, who worked in the time control part of the Montauk Project. We're just going to conduct our interview today to to get a better overview of Montauk—more specifically, what happened with the time control project. Larry, welcome to the program again.

LARRY: Thank you.

MICHAEL: When do you think it actually started?

LARRY: Well it goes all the way back to the Philadelphia Experiment. I wasn't involved in that, of course, but that was the beginning phases of the realization that, yeah, that can actually be obtained.

MICHAEL: When you say, that, you mean—

LARRY: Time travel. That was the whole thing. That was the original object, was to become stealthy and invisible with Philadelphia, and they tripped and stumbled and found time travel.

MICHAEL: Well, we've interviewed many people, and they they pretty much say that that experiment was abandoned, that it was a failure—you know, after ’43 they decided that it didn't work.

LARRY: Well, it actually continued on to ’47, and it was abandoned at that time because they knew something was going on, but they didn't know what it was. They didn't know what they had at the time.

MICHAEL: At that time, but the work still continued.

LARRY: It continued on later; it was opened up later on. It was in the late ‘40s when it was shut down, and it was re-opened by a group of people who were working on a project called Mirage. Basically, it was a continuation of an investigation into stealth technology. And from that point, they were doing things like— They started back in the ‘40s towards the end of the war, where they were actually painting battleships, and painting them in all sorts of wild and crazy shapes and colors. You had battleships that look like zebras, you had pink ships with blue clouds on them, and you had yellow triangles and blue dots, and all these weird shapes and things painted onto the ships. And strangely enough, you could actually lose them on the horizon; you could not see them. But they would still show up on the new technology at the time called radar.

And so, the work was to continue on in the electronics field, also to actually get rid of that electronic signature.

MICHAEL: Was his group a group of people inside the Navy, or the Air Force, or whatever, or was it an outside group working on this stealth technology?

LARRY: It was kind of like a government contractor, and they were just basically working on the experimentation for stealth technology.

MICHAEL: Did they have access to all the data on the Philadelphia Experiment?

LARRY: Not until later, about a year after the project was shut down. The government actually tried to hide the information.

MICHAEL: Why did they want to hide it?

LARRY: Because of the accidents that had occurred and the human life, the toll that had been taken, and they didn't know how to control it. They didn't know what they had. So, the best thing to do, instead of create a stir, a panic, they covered it up, just like they do with most things when they don't want to create a panic.

MICHAEL: So, you think they kept it secret because perhaps they felt it was such a powerful technology it could be weaponized against the U.S. government?

LARRY: Sure.

MICHAEL: But at that point, we didn't really understand how to use it, how to control it. All we knew is that we had a ship, it was invisible for twenty minutes, came back, and four sailors were embedded in the hull at the time. The rest of them wandering around.

LARRY: Some of them had their brains scrambled.

MICHAEL: Have you ever heard any stories about what actually happened with some of these sailors?

5:00 LARRY: There is a hospital up in New York that they're in, and I'm sorry I can't tell you the name of that hospital right now. I can probably find out for you.

MICHAEL: A VA hospital?

LARRY: Yeah, it is.

MICHAEL: Okay. And you think the remaining survivors are still there?

LARRY: Yeah, there they are most definitely there. There is a colleague of mine whose mother was a nurse there, and he's told me about it before. And yeah, they're still there.

MICHAEL: Were they still having the same phasing problems of being there one minute then phasing out to another dimension, or is that gone by now?

LARRY: Most of the people who had that problem, they completely phased out and disappeared within the first two years. That kind of happened right away.

MICHAEL: So, do you think these people in the hospitals were put there to be quiet, or they were put there because they went crazy?

LARRY: They went crazy, and they're just mentally not there anymore.

LARRY: So, getting back to the original question, this group who's working on these stealth technology picked up on the Philadelphia Experiment and realized that it did have something to do with time travel. But still, it was unharnessed. And it was pursued through the Phoenix project all the way up through the ‘70s. And it was sponsored by the government up to the point—

MICHAEL: So, you're saying it was this group was a private contractor. Do we know the name of this private contractor?

LARRY: That's something we probably should keep quiet.

MICHAEL: Okay, so we'll just say a private contractor. Did this contractor actually work with the group at Montauk?

LARRY: Yeah, that's where everything was moved to eventually back in the ‘70s.

MICHAEL: Back in the ‘70s. So, really, from the ‘50s through the ’70s. That's 20 years where they actually worked on this technology.

LARRY: And they had very little success in getting anywhere with it until the ‘70s.

MICHAEL: Now, Preston talks about a company called AIL who did this sort of thing. Is that the type of group that would have been involved in this?

LARRY: Sure.

MICHAEL: Okay, ‘cause AIL was where he worked.

LARRY: There was more than one company that worked on it.

MICHAEL: So, they spread it out—

LARRY: Yeah.

MICHAEL: —in an effort to to try to conquer this. Were they thinking time travel at the time?

LARRY: Yes, they were, actually.

MICHAEL: They wanted to do time travel.

LARRY: Right. But also, we've talked about things as far as a UFO presence and an alien presence with alien technology. And I'd like to address that a little bit, because the government obviously looked into that. They knew that there was that type of technology out there, that it had been harnessed. And that's why things like the very-publicized Project Blue Book had come about. And Blue Book, as everybody knows, was the government search for UFOs, to try and capture one. And that's been well documented.

There's also been several different groups. There's more than just Blue Book. There's also Red Book, Yellow Book, White Book, and that was just part of the series. And this is CIA / Air Force that was doing this. And Yellow Book was to find out all the technical information, Red Book was to find out medical information, and so on.

MICHAEL: What was Blue Book then?

LARRY: Blue Book was to actually find the UFOs, whether it be chasing them down, or just basically seeking them out.

10:00 MICHAEL: But wasn't there a point in time, Larry, where our government met with extraterrestrials—

LARRY: Yeah

MICHAEL: —and hammered out agreements, where we would get certain technology and they would have certain access to whatever we agreed to let them have access to?

Humans For Hardware - part 1

LARRY: That's correct

MICHAEL: So there was in a partnership struck at that point in time. So I would imagine that we would have had access to certain technology during the ‘50s or the ‘60s and the ‘70s as a result of this agreement.

LARRY: That's true thing was in some there's more than one type of alien out there also as we've discussed yeah before.

MICHAEL: Who was it that we made this agreement with?

LARRY: to my understanding because I don't know for sure to my understanding it was a had to do with the greys where we'd struck a deal with them but we renegged on them.

MICHAEL: We did?

LARRY: yeah they they gave us certain technologies in exchange we were to give them certain technologies and information and we didn't and so that kind of pissed them off.

MICHAEL: Okay, but that's just hearsay for you. That's just hearsay. You don't know.

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: But as you were actually working in the program, did you ever get technical information or hardware or anything that came from the greys?

LARRY: I just got the hardware; I don't know where it came from.

MICHAEL: So, that would be another group of people who developed the hardware.

LARRY: That would be under Yellow Book, yeah.

MICHAEL: Okay. Because Blue Book worked on the hardware.

LARRY: No, no, Blue Book worked on chasing them down.

MICHAEL: Okay. And Yellow Book worked on getting the technology into a form that we could use it in, right?

LARRY: Right. Also, remember, too: just like our computer language isn't the same as say the computer language they use in China, we had to convert at the alien computer language also.

MICHAEL: There must have been a huge effort somewhere.

LARRY: Sure.

MICHAEL: Well, you would think. And obviously since there would have to be thousands of people involved in this, You would think some of that would have had to have leaked out by now.

LARRY: Well, that's the thing is I compartmentalize things and you only give certain groups little bits and pieces. So, you give one group over here group a you know a piece of the puzzle you give Group B a piece of the puzzle and never the two shall meet.

MICHAEL: Well that's good for security, but I would think that would take a lot longer to actually crack the code.

LARRY: Sure, it does. And I can speak from working in-between both white projects and black projects. All white projects were our government projects that are given out, and they’re secret, but they're not covert. Black projects are more covert, more undercover, and basically you don't mess with them. And the black programs would know more information than the white project, normally, and they would sit there at lunch and laugh at the guys in the white projects as they're trying to figure out this problem, and the guys in the black projects already knew the answers to them.

And to clear up one thing about black projects they you always hear things about you know the $700 hammer and the $500 toilet seat, well, of course, there is no such thing. Anybody can go out to a hardware store and for five bucks buy a hammer. Well, basically what is that money is being diverted, so that it's no longer under Congressional control, and where the money is being dealt out, and so that they can actually fund these programs that way.

MICHAEL: I think that's pretty well-known fact by now. That’s how they got their funding, among many other ways, right?

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: Okay. When did some of the first big breakthroughs occur in time travel—the development of our capabilities to time-travel?

15:00 LARRY: That would have been in the late ‘70s.

MICHAEL: In the late ‘70s. Not the early seventies?

LARRY: No. We had some some breakthroughs there, but there was a lot of offshoots that came out of it. The early seventies is where the mind control was found out. And because we had gone into working with frequencies. And with that, they found with the frequency you could actually read minds, manipulate minds, and so when the government found out about that, they said, “Well, we're done with you. We don't want to be controlled. So, what we're going to do is we're just going to shut you down; no more funding, no more anything.” And so, then the project went underground.

MICHAEL: What year was this?

LARRY: That was in ’73.

MICHAEL: Seventy-three. So, you lost your funding from the U.S. government.

LARRY: Yes.

MICHAEL: Who what branch of the government was actually providing the funding?

LARRY: That was Congress.

MICHAEL: Congress was? It wasn't a military branch? Congress provides funding for everything.

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: But I would imagine, though, that it would have been—

LARRY: It was open research at that time.

MICHAEL: Just open research

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: And so someone presented the results saying we know how to work with frequencies and working within these frequencies we can actually control what someone thinks, what someone does, here's how we do it. And you're saying that the that the people in Congress looked at this, got a little scared—

LARRY: That's a fact.

MICHAEL: —and said, not “no,” but “hell, no.”

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: “We're not going to let you go on, because we're afraid that you're going to use this on us.”

LARRY: That's correct.

MICHAEL: And so in 1973, Congress decided to shut the funding down, right—

LARRY: Correct.

MICHAEL: —for the researchers who were at Montauk. And can you give us a little profile? Where did these guys come from, and were they working above ground or below ground at that time?

LARRY: We were working above ground and it wasn't even so much at Montauk at that point. that was more not in the Brookhaven area. And we realized at that point that, without our funding, that we still had to continue on. We still hadn’t fully attained our objective. And the objective was time travel.

MICHAEL: Complete time travel. Okay. So, mind control was a by-product. Sort of like it it was the first door that you had to go through to get to time travel, wasn't it?

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: Because my guess is with time travel you're sort of dematerializing and rematerializing the body, right?

LARRY: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And you're doing that through frequencies. Okay. And then in the process you found out, “well I have a map of all the frequencies. I can adjust it or actually wipe out a few frequencies and voila: what happens?

LARRY: Well, then that person forgets.

MICHAEL: And is that is that's very important Larry because everybody talks about it. And when we talk about Al [Bielek]—even with you.

LARRY: Yeah.

MICHAEL: People are saying that their memories were wiped.

LARRY: They were wiped; they were erased, yes. And you can do that by hitting them with a certain frequency.

MICHAEL: Do you project a frequency, or sort of like it's a gun? How does that work?

LARRY: Well, it's a I'm just kind of like any other type of frequency. I guess you could say a gun, like, but now it's more and just like a speaker that's projecting.

MICHAEL: Okay so you put him in front of the speaker you know exactly which frequencies to shoot out of the speaker?

LARRY: well no you dumb basically uh in the earlier stages so when you actually actually yeah you actually had to hook him up. so in other words they were like a speaker receiving.

MICHAEL: How would you hook him up?

LARRY: We built a headpiece that you put on their head, and that was pretty much it.

MICHAEL: You put a headpiece on their head.

LARRY: Yeah, that had little electrodes.

MICHAEL: Okay, like the electrodes that we see in hospitals and things, where you try to monitor someone, right?

LARRY: Sure.

MICHAEL: So, you’d put a number of electrodes on them, and then you’d pump some—

LARRY: You’d pump the frequency in there.

MICHAEL: Okay. And how was the right frequency to just wipe out that tiny part of their mind? How was it identified and then put into form to be injected?

20:00 LARRY: Actually, the brainwaves were recorded.

MICHAEL: On tape?

LARRY: Yeah. Well, it's it was a reel-to-reel tape, but it was all computerized. And, so, yeah, you could actually take the recording, and then run back, and feed that in. So, you can actually implant memories, and you can actually remove memories: you can do both.

MICHAEL: It's sort of like editing audio tape in a sense, wasn't it?

LARRY: Almost, but a little more complex, because you're doing it to a human.

MICHAEL: There's more data, obviously, right?

LARRY: Yeah.

MICHAEL: So, for instance, if you wanted to implant a memory, say, that you were the president of the United States, could you actually get that memory from the president, save the memory on tape, and then edit that memory into the tape of this person you're trying to mind-control, and then play that tape back through these electrodes that are on their head, and then they believe they're the president?

LARRY: In theory, yes that could be done. I'm not saying it ever was done, but—

MICHAEL: That wasn't a—

LARRY: No, that's just a generic scenario. But, yeah, that's generally what you could do.

MICHAEL: So what would be some memories that they would implant?

LARRY: Really, there was nothing specific. I mean, that was just all part of testing at the time. So, there was nothing specific on that.

MICHAEL: Okay, but it wasn't but to wipe memories I would think was a fairly routine thing.

LARRY: it became more routine later on, yes.

MICHAEL: It seems like, though, if you get the wrong data, you could wipe out—

LARRY: You could wipe a person raw, yeah.

22:00 MICHAEL: Yeah I mean you could could you say wipe out their ear? If all we are is a frequency, and you move from the frequency of the mental thinking over to the physical part, and you accidentally hit something on the physical frequency, could they come back with a missing arm, or a missing ear or something?

LARRY: Well, there wasn't anything like that possible at this particular type of stage. That was something else that was a possibility later on.

MICHAEL: Okay, but in this stage you're just dealing with the mind and what's going on in the thinking of the mind. Well, would it be possible then to wipe out a specific function accidentally that was housed in the mind?

LARRY: Sure.

MICHAEL: Did that happen?

LARRY: Sure, there were a couple of vegetables made. [laughter]

MICHAEL: Okay. I mean like, they could come back and oops, I can't smell anymore, or oops, I can't taste any more.

LARRY: Well, no, because, see, those are actually actually physical attributes that you have.

MICHAEL: But the mind is what makes those physical attributes happen.

LARRY: It actually translates it. So it is still there and it's still working. But as far as having a for like a sense of smell, yeah, you could theoretically wipe out anybody's thoughts on previous smells. Or you could actually implant smells, have them think that they've smelled something before that they never have.

MICHAEL: Could you actually implant triggers into someone's mind, so that when a certain word was spoken, a certain card was shown, whatever, that that programming was then initiated for them to go and carry out?

LARRY: Yes. Yeah, that was available. And that was actually one of the things that was presented to Congress at the time, which got the project shut down.

24:30 MICHAEL: You know that brings to mind that movie The Manchurian Candidate. But that was all based on— I think Frank Sinatra was in that movie, And I think they were in the Korean War—don't quote me on this—but they were captured by the Chinese and the Russians and were programmed to become trained killers, essentially. So they came back, and when certain words were said, I think when one of the guys got a phone call, he would then go out and kill someone, and then blink out of it, not know that he had done that.

25:00 LARRY: That sounds like a particular type of psychological warfare, and that sounds like it was done through conventional brainwashing.

MICHAEL: Well, it was just a movie.

LARRY: But that's another way of doing it, though. And what it is, is that you obviously have to go through a long process of depriving them of protein, and years of abuse.

MICHAEL: You couldn't use this mind-control process that you're talking about?

LARRY: Using that, yes you can. You could speed up the process by, literally, seconds

MICHAEL: So, in the old days say back in the 40s and 50s it was took weeks and weeks and weeks, didn't it?

LARRY: Well sure. And I'm sure that there's even conventionally today where they still do that.

MICHAEL: But now it's been perfected in a sense, right?

LARRY: Electronically, yes.

MICHAEL: Right. So, I mean, these people that mind control was actually executed on them, just give us an example. What are some things that you would want them to become mind-control slaves to? What did you try to get them to think or do?

LARRY: I wasn't in that area.

MICHAEL: So, you just executed the program, right?

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: You didn't choose the—

LARRY: I was solely working on time control. Time control, time travel.

MICHAEL: But you would have had to have gone through the first doors of mind control to get to time control.

LARRY: Yes. That was one of the experiments. But once we gotten that aspect, that was turned over to another group, and that was pretty much, for me, left behind.

MICHAEL: Okay, so, your focus was time control.

LARRY: On time travel.

MICHAEL: Okay. So, I think we're at ’73 right now. When did some of the first breakthroughs in time control occur?

LARRY: Those were actually the late seventies, early eighties. And we were still trying to get it harnessed. Psychics were brought in, as we've discussed before. And we used them along with the chair. The chair actually enhanced the psychic abilities

MICHAEL: Did the Montauk boys enhance the psychic abilities as well?

LARRY: That was for testing purposes, but they had to be psychic in order to do that.

MICHAEL: The boys, or the person in the chair?

LARRY: The person in the chair. So, the Montauk boys were basically just a tool that we used. And I didn't deal with them too much. When I did deal with them, they were pretty much just like guinea pigs for experiments.

MICHAEL: And there were literally thousands of these boys, wasn't there?

LARRY: Oh, yes, thousands of them.

MICHAEL: And they are picked up off the streets in all the major cities in the United States.

LARRY: Well, that's the whole thing is that every major city has thousands of homeless people. Because it wasn't just boys: there were homeless people.

MICHAEL: Oh. Was it girls, too?

LARRY: Girls came later. We mostly focused with males at first, to my knowledge.

MICHAEL: From what you saw was mostly Caucasian males, or any type of male?

LARRY: There again, at first, that's all I saw, but there again, that was a

project that I wasn't in charge of. That was somebody else's deal.

MICHAEL: You mean the Montauk boy project.

LARRY: Right. But they eventually I brought in all sorts races, as far as black, Hispanic, Asian.

MICHAEL: So, this would have been in the ‘80s, right?

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: The early eighties in the early 80s but was it still mostly males

LARRY: Yeah, mostly males.

Did you ever see any females brought in?

LARRY: Not until later. I mean, that was late in the program for me.

MICHAEL: Would that be in the late ’80s, do you think?

LARRY: Uh, no, it was mid-‘80s.

MICHAEL: Mid-‘80s? That's when something like that—

LARRY: It was late ’80s.

30:00 MICHAEL: Okay, all right. Kind of the middle ‘80s, we started seeing women in the program, but all initially male.

Let's go back to where we have the first real big breakthrough. Something happened which allowed you to physically move a person from point A to point B, time A to time B. There must have been the first one.

LARRY: Well, it's all it's a slow progression, obviously thousands and thousands of experiments. And due to some of the special equipment—mainly the delta-T antenna—was able to—in junction with the psychics in the chair—actually were able to open up a hole in time, so to speak.

MICHAEL: About what time was this, what year?

LARRY: I can't remember specifically but I want to say it's between ’80 and ’82. I can't give you an actual date there.

MICHAEL: We hear a lot about this delta-T antenna. Preston talks about it, you talk about it a little bit. But where did the technology to develop this delta-T antenna come from? Was that extraterrestrial?

LARRY: I don't know for sure on that. I do know that came from another government contractor.

MICHAEL: Given to you.

LARRY: Yeah, given to me. And there again, what it is, it actually enhances the frequencies just by its shape. Many antennas you can feed in the same frequency, but different shapes of the antenna, it will do different things.

MICHAEL: What might be helpful to the person listening right now is to picture this: picture a slide projector. And what that slide projector does is it projects an image on a wall, in a sense.

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: So, now, the delta-T antenna is that slide projector—

LARRY: That's correct.

MICHAEL: —and by turning it on, you're projecting a field. And this field I believe where is what people would actually walk into—

LARRY: That's correct.

MICHAEL: —to go to a different time in a different space. All right. So, I think that will help you as you try to gain an idea, and also, on this CD we're going to have pictures of some of these delta-T antennas so you can view this for yourself.

So you say the delta-T’s in the early ‘80s were introduced. Did it really take the delta-T antennas to make time travel possible, or was it sort of played with prior to that?

LARRY: I don't know how much they were played with, but it's one of the main keys. It actually opens up the time-travel plane, so you can actually jump from one time frame to another and one time plane to another.

MICHAEL: And what's controlling these antennas? Is there a computer behind them?

LARRY: Yeah. There's the computers, large power sources. Yeah, the first ones really needed an awful lot of energy behind them in order to get things moving. And there were tunnels under Montauk that go to outer places, outer power plants where we could tap off of the energy sources and not have people getting all suspicious about it. Because at Montauk, the power sources were not large enough for it. We couldn't draw enough power.

MICHAEL: You didn't have our own nuclear reactor down there?

LARRY: We did, but it would endure it it couldn't produce enough power for us.

MICHAEL: Wow. You needed that much power.

LARRY: Yeah, well we actually had a tunnel where we ran, and we actually tapped into a power plant in New Jersey, and we drew power off of there. And at one point I remember we'd actually shut down a portion of New Jersey. They were without power because we just drew too much out of it. And that happened for a few hours that they were without power.

35:00 MICHAEL: Did they get irritated at you guys?

LARRY: No, there's not much they could do about it. All they knew is that they had a large power surge. They were were being sucked on pretty bad.

MICHAEL: That’s interesting that it requires so much power. Now, I would assume today it doesn't require near the amount of power.

LARRY: No, computers have gotten better, power supplies have gotten better. And actually the antennas themselves have been improved and gotten better.

MICHAEL: But would you say today it still requires a fair amount of power? Could you plug it into the wall and do it, or do you need a direct feed to a power plant like you had back then?

LARRY: No, I have heard that there are units that are so small now that they can actually fit in a briefcase. I don't know how true that is, but that's what I hear.

MICHAEL: Well, that would make sense given the way everything else has been miniaturized. So, that's just an assumption on your part.

LARRY: Right.

MICHAEL: Okay. So, let's go back to the the early ‘80s. You have the delta-T antennas, time for time travel. What did you guys decide to do initially? What type of projects? And we've had some conversations earlier with you and Al [Bielek] where we talked about it, but what were the very first projects?

LARRY: One of the things initially well we got to figure out, well, when we open up these time holes, where are we going? And basically there were a lot of mathematics involved in that. It was a type of mathematics called Phi. And it's very hard to find, but it's out there.

37:00 MICHAEL: How would you spell that?

LARRY: P-H-I.

MICHAEL: P-H-I, okay. Which is different than Pi?

LARRY: It's the exact opposite of Pi. And I know some people are going to have a hard time understanding that, some mathematicians, but it's a much higher form of mathematics. It is out there, it can be found. It's just extremely hard to find. There are books on it. [Norman Levinson https://scopeweb.mit.edu/normal-levinson-from-the-mit-archives-764cb878ac20, whose books were classified by the NSA]

MICHAEL: Where do you think that math came from? Is that what the ET’s use?

LARRY: More than likely, yeah.

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